tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13911862.post8484024424782961583..comments2023-12-15T08:48:28.098-05:00Comments on Once in a Blue Muse: Go Home, Tropes; You're TiredLisa Cohenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07530826748768737972noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13911862.post-20919422161261355432013-12-10T14:06:21.969-05:002013-12-10T14:06:21.969-05:00Morgan, you were the lucky winner through a random...Morgan, you were the lucky winner through a random number generator! Congrats and thank you for your great comment. At your convenience, please email me your snail mail address and I will send you your copy of Mike's book. (lisa at ljcohen dot net)Lisa Cohenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07530826748768737972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13911862.post-73921397505517826622013-12-05T18:33:11.871-05:002013-12-05T18:33:11.871-05:00Other things I am personally a little tired of are...Other things I am personally a little tired of are Surprisingly Moral Assassins (only killing people who REALLY deserve it), and the Infinitely Caring Healer, a kind of wish fulfilment character (obviously all readers would love to have a beautiful lady care for them devotedly the whole damn time) and this is closely related to "Narrator Is Wanking?!" Maybe that one doesn't count as a "trope" exactly.emilywhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16597026129277823778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13911862.post-62282904549235816192013-12-05T15:27:52.764-05:002013-12-05T15:27:52.764-05:00Oh, yes, that puts me off faster than almost anyth...Oh, yes, that puts me off faster than almost anything. Mike Reeves-McMillanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06658462904614685810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13911862.post-20073575281641558262013-12-05T15:26:17.408-05:002013-12-05T15:26:17.408-05:00I have a text summary of his YouTube series here: ...I have a text summary of his YouTube series here: http://csidemedia.com/gryphonclerks/2012/12/16/dan-wells-seven-point-story-structure/Mike Reeves-McMillanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06658462904614685810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13911862.post-2705505521407239182013-12-05T14:57:45.138-05:002013-12-05T14:57:45.138-05:00Gratuitous Indefensible Violence, in which the fir...Gratuitous Indefensible Violence, in which the first thing a character does in the story is to torture, rape or murder someone for no obvious reason, just so that we know this is the Bad Guy.emilywhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16597026129277823778noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13911862.post-17881453596406123352013-12-05T14:44:34.822-05:002013-12-05T14:44:34.822-05:00I hang out in fanfic circles which is inexperience...I hang out in fanfic circles which is inexperienced writer trope city, let me tell you. Seeing people actually take a trope, and turn it into something fresh and theirs, not a rehash of the same old same old is something wonderful, especially appreciated by the reader who has been hammered by cookie cutter stories.Sue Stonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06461445421504740514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13911862.post-78853565639719714622013-12-04T23:55:00.465-05:002013-12-04T23:55:00.465-05:00@Mike Reeves-McMillan: Thanks for the reference: c...@Mike Reeves-McMillan: Thanks for the reference: checking out Dan Wells now. KMAndersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02165231907623759707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13911862.post-18956655152282218722013-12-04T22:03:45.770-05:002013-12-04T22:03:45.770-05:00@KMAnderson: oh, yes. The Training Montage. The Su...@KMAnderson: oh, yes. The Training Montage. The Sudden Competence in a Moment of Crisis Despite Previous Shirking and Complaining About How Hard the Training Is. I really want to see more stories in which people gain competence by working hard every day for years, because that's how it actually happens. You don't have to show every moment of the grind, but at least don't pretend it didn't have to happen. <br /><br />I'm not a fan of Campbell (basically, the more I know about something he's writing about, the less convincing he sounds) and following the Hero's Journey as a formula for writing, rather than a way of understanding existing stories, leads to, well, The Phantom Menace. I think we can write arcs of development without referencing it too closely. I use Dan Wells' Seven Point Structure myself: everyday starting point, something happens to change the status quo and make the character react, something bad happens to raise the stakes, character decides to be proactive about solving the problem, something worse happens, character gets what they need to solve the problem, character resolves the problem and is in a new situation. It's generic enough that you can tell it a great many different ways.<br /><br />@Sean Cox: Good one, the Serendipitous Comment. I did a Harry Potter re-read recently, and though I love the series, it has its faults, and that's one of them. There are many subplots, but the "mystery" one goes: There's a mystery! Harry flails about with no clue! Someone (usually Hermione) hits him repeatedly with the clue stick! Mystery solved! It's not very satisfying. <br /><br />@Morgan Alreth: I think those ones come from D&D, which in turn draws on pulp adventure, often inspired by things like King Tut's tomb (excavated in the heyday of the pulps). <br /><br />Obstacles for the sake of obstacles are like action for the sake of action: they're empty story-calories. Fortunately, if I tried putting in something like that my development editor would call me on it. I know, because she did. (It was a rescue, but same principle.)<br /><br />I'd much rather see a more realistic struggle. Climbing, for example, is hard, and tiring, and you can slip, and your muscles burn, and your fingers hurt, and sometimes you're not strong enough to get where you need to go without a supreme effort. Show me that, not some nonsense maze full of traps. Mike Reeves-McMillanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06658462904614685810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13911862.post-11439234160913630642013-12-04T22:03:11.729-05:002013-12-04T22:03:11.729-05:00Loving these comments.
@Ilyanna Kreske: I should ...Loving these comments.<br /><br />@Ilyanna Kreske: I should warn you (in case you win the book) that it does contain some short, grumpy dwarves, though they don't carry axes (they have people for that sort of thing), and they're more industrialists and capitalists than Nordo-Scottish warriors. My elves are a bit like the British Empire, and a bit like the Roman Empire, and a bit like the Third Reich; they're also biotechnologists, but their empire fell over 500 years ago and they've withdrawn into the forests, so they haven't been onstage yet. <br /><br />@fjsalazar: Magic does need limitations, or it destroys the plot, but you're right, the limitations should make some kind of sense. <br /><br />Kickass heroines are legion, it's true, and apparently keep selling. That's kind of why I included them as an overdone trope. On the one hand, it's great that women have more roles in fiction than "damsel in distress/woman in refrigerator", but it's not so great that those roles are often an inferior version of what was traditionally a male role. This is what I really mean towards the end about writing characters based on people, not other characters. I have met exactly zero kickass heroines (as usually written) in real life. I have met large numbers of strong women whose strengths range through intelligence, emotional insight, compassion, determination, endurance, the ability to make alliances, the ability to inspire loyalty and pride in others, competence at everyday tasks (something "kickass heroines" often lack), self-confidence (likewise), wisdom (very much likewise), and ferocity in defense of the downtrodden, all of which are, of course, also accompanied by flaws. <br /><br />Editors will publish what sells without, usually, caring too much about its other merits. As an indie author, I'd like to take the opportunity to write something with merit and then see whether it sells or not.Mike Reeves-McMillanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06658462904614685810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13911862.post-85367437950451250952013-12-04T12:31:11.907-05:002013-12-04T12:31:11.907-05:00Your mention of watching the characters being run ...Your mention of watching the characters being run all over the map collecting powerups reminded me of something. One trope you didn't mention, that really irritates me, is what I call the Obligatory Labyrinth. It grits my teeth when I see the hero/heroine forced to fight their way through a series of unnecessary obstacles for no particular purpose. It's fine if there's a reason for the obstacles. I'm talking about a case where it is obvious that the only purpose is to stretch out the story and give the author time and room to insert something. <br /><br />For example, it might conceivably be necessary for a character to break into an old tomb to steal an artifact. Right offhand, I can't see the point. Most times, people don't bury useful things with the dead. They keep the useful things outside and continue using them. Grave goods are ceremonial and decorative. But whatever. If the hero breaks into a tomb, it's possible that their might be trap. Or even two. But an entire buried necropolis? Lined with precision crafted machinery that must have cost the ancient nation twice its entire yearly budget? Plus enough magic defenses to protect the kingdom's borders from a barbarian invasion? Please. If it was that valuable, Why isn't it in the palace vault? <br /><br />Same for wading through the twisted maze of an ancient city. People who lived in ancient cities were still people. They laid out their city streets to get from home, to market, to temple, to home again. They seldom if ever deliberately forced common citizens to fight their way past enchanted guardians in order to reach the greengorcer. I can see danger from falling buildings, or wild animals that moved in. Or even ghosts. But why would anyone get lost in a maze? It's a city street! Scratch a mark on a wall! Morgan Alrethnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13911862.post-78818546538634236922013-12-03T15:22:18.765-05:002013-12-03T15:22:18.765-05:00I agree with these, particularly Chosen One storie...I agree with these, particularly Chosen One stories. A trope that drives me crazy is A cousin to the Convenient Eavesdrop is the Serendipitous Comment Clue. The hero has to figure something out, and someone says some random thing and it makes no sense but it solves the problem in one fell swoop.<br /><br />Example: Our hero needs to figure out how the killer snuck into the room.<br />Overheard: Man, I sure do hate how mice are always sneaking into my cellar to eat my cheese.<br />Hero: Of course! He must be a shape shifter who turned into a mouse and snuck in through a hole in the wall!<br /><br />I feel like investigation should involve more effort and developing theories and then investigating those theories. Instead, it often comes across as Step 1) stumble across clues then Step 2) hang out waiting for someone to accidentally give you an epiphany. Step 3) Congratulations! You are a master mystery solver!Sean Coxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13911862.post-66995657923772351322013-12-03T13:30:16.914-05:002013-12-03T13:30:16.914-05:00Love this list, and the reading list of writers wh...Love this list, and the reading list of writers who manage to use the conventions in new ways. I would like to challenge the trope of the One Perfect Teacher and the related notion of the One Lesson, Suddenly Learned (Enlightenment, Suddenly Achieved?) but they're such frequent elements of the hero's journey (heroine's journey, too?) that I wonder whether they can be remade or eliminated. As a teacher of young adults, I think our culture doesn't do a very good job generally of reassuring students that there's nothing wrong w/ them if learning (or becoming a great athlete, etc.) takes years, is full of painful trial and error, and sometimes feels like a grind beset with failure and uncertainty. The grind doesn't always make good reading / good cinema, however. I wonder: how can we write fantasy or other speculative genres -- can we? -- without Campbell's Hero standing behind our desks? (For the record, I'm a huge fan of the hero's journey as a way of understanding what I read.) KMAndersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02165231907623759707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13911862.post-8133029489521903202013-12-03T10:37:42.418-05:002013-12-03T10:37:42.418-05:00Strongly and wholeheartedly agree. Another trope ...Strongly and wholeheartedly agree. Another trope that we need less of is the Ironic Limitation: A critical ability or possession that has an unexpected limitation or side-effect. If done well and in small doses can be humorous, or even black-comic; if not it's like a cheesy Saturday morning cartoon.<br /><br />One thing you don't touch on though, is the role of the market. Just to cite one case, Kickass-Heroine books seems to sell, at least judging by the endless array of impractically clad sword-, knife-, staff-, and gun-wielding women you see on covers on bookstore shelves. Authors are serving this up, but surely Editors are complicit?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13911862.post-57023870982488865212013-12-03T09:39:22.855-05:002013-12-03T09:39:22.855-05:00Brilliant analysis. I think the one I find irksome...Brilliant analysis. I think the one I find irksome is the Dwarves/Elves/Men characterization. Since Tolkien Dwarves are short grumpy people good with axes and not particularly attractive, Elves are beautiful and perfect at everything, especially archery, and Men are idiots who -- despite being less competent than either of the previous two "races" somehow wind up the savior.ilyannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04805944750017424794noreply@blogger.com